Beyond Hogwarts

Search Beyond Hogwarts:

Reference Desk:
Beyond Hogwarts FAQ
Wizard to Muggle Currency Converter
Harry Potter Spelling Reference

The Aftermath: We were all correct

by David Haber

Sometime a week before Book 7 came out, someone commented that Harry would die, but then come back. I think most everyone on the site thought it was a silly idea. But I told several people at that time that I thought that just might be the perfect solution, although I couldn't figure out how J.K. could make it work. J.K. did, of course! So, the half of the Harry Potter fans in the world who thought Harry would die were right! And the other half who thought he would live were also right!

> Read the full article

Pages:  <<  <  75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 ...  >  >>

Reader Comments: (Page 85)

If Snape ed Dumbledore and thereby gained ownership of the Elder Wand, he would be protected as Harry was, if Voldemort stole the Wand and attempted to use it against Snape.
Draco got there first and eliminated Dumbledore's protection for Snape. With Snape in close contact with Voldemort, and the chance of Legilimency revealing the plan, Dumbledore probably could not take the chance of giving away too much information.

Posted by Patricia Mortimer from Quincy,Massachusetts on September 26, 2007 08:27 AM

I feel the idea is that wand is unbeatable (remember harry mended his wand with the elder wand which otherwise was not possible) not the wizard holding it unless he (or she, interestingly no witch ever seemed to have it) unless he can perform sful magic. A duel between two wizards is just not the matching of magic but also the fight of their minds (perhaps souls also) as we see in the duel between Dumbledore and Voldy at the ministry in OotP.

So a wizard can still be beaten when he is holding (or fighting) with the unbeatable wand. As at astronomy tower, Dumbledore took the minute to protect harry by placing the body bind curse. In that split second when his thoughts were on protecting harry and placing the spell on him, Draco disarmed him (otherwise what chance did Draco have against Dumbledore). Similarly, when Dumbledore dueled Grindelwald, Dumbledore must have engaged him with many, varied spells in such a mind occupying manner that Grindelwald lost to him, losing the ownership (if he had it) of the elder wand.

Regarding that some spells which break when caster s and others not, my guess is that spells which can be reversed (like full body bind curse, stunning etc.) be lifted but the othes not (Like permanent sticking charm or AK, etc.)

Kendra from alicante, I was wondering that myself. Also hagrid should now be eligible to have a new wand of his own.

Posted by swati from India on September 26, 2007 10:30 PM

We can never know what the original plan was. The scene was not definitely the planned one (remember Hermione waking snape that fateful night, otherwise he would be waiting for Dumbledore to return) and Dumbledore also didn�t know what would lie in the cave. Dumbledore did also not know that Draco would enter DEs and try to him. So how exactly did Dumbledore plan his with snape being responsible for it?

It turns out that all 3 - Harry Potter, Dumbledore and Voldemort - are Half Bloods. Also, now there are 3 couples who could not raise their child - James and Lily potter, Alice and Frank Longbottam and Remus Lupin and Nymphadora Tonks. Going by that, Teddy Lupin should be the hero of the new series.

Posted by swati from India on September 26, 2007 10:49 PM

What I meant about the prophecy telling things the way they actually were rather than what we thought they would be is this.

The prophecy says:

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month s...and the Dark Lord mark him as his equal, but he have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the DArk Lord be born as the seventh month s... (p741 OotP)

It seems to me that the common interpretation before ly Hallows was that Harry was the one with the power to vanquish Voldemort and that he was marked by the scar on his forehead (with or without accompanying powers such as the ability to speak parseltongue) and that the power he had that Voldemort knew not was love. There was a lot of debate about the fact that Harry was not powerful enough to defeat Voldemort one on one in a duel. It was assumed that Harry would confront Volemort directly and attack him with something like avada kedavra. Harry's interpretation was that either he would have to Voldemort or that Voldemort would him (also Dumbledore's interpretation).

What actually happened was different from what we expected in a number of ways. Harry was indeed the one chosen to vanquish Voldemort as described in the prophecy...notice the word vanquish...Harry doesn't Voldemort directly, rather Voldemort s himself inadvertently when the AV curse rebounds in the great hall.

Harry is marked by Voldemort as his equal...he has a piece of Voldemort's soul in his body...this marks him as Voldemort's equal and gives him the powers such as parseltongue...(it also explains the connection between Harry and Voldemort and why Harry is acutely sensitive to Voldemort's emotions etc). THe scar is the outward manifestation of this "antihorcrux" for want of a better word.

But he have power the Dark Lord knows not. This is indeed love, in the sense that Voldemort has not been loved and doesn't know how to love and it is Harry's love for Sirius that overcomes Voldemort when he tries to possess Harry and his love for others that enables him to find the strength to for them. BUT it can also mean that Harry had united the ly Hallows (he had the cloak, the stone and control over the elder wand by the time he confronted Voldemort)...the power was that he didn't seek to use the hallows for his own ends...also that he was not afraid to to save others...he had power over in that sense...which Voldemort didn't know about...BUT it could also mean that Harry was master of the elder wand when he confronted Voldemort in the great hall...another power Voldemort knew not...and again, it could refer to the fact that Voldemort, by taking Lily's blood into his veins at his regeneration, gave Harry the choice to return from "Kings Cross" to finish the job.

Either must at the hand of the other...doesn't mean, as we thought it did, that either must the other one directly...Voldemort s "at Harry's hand" i.e. Harry sets up the circumstances in which Voldemort s, but doesn't him directly...expelliarmus rather than avada kedavra.

The only word that remains problematic to me is live in the bit about neither can live while the other the sense that neither can live a complete and fulfilled life, it makes sense...also that Voldemort can't reunite his soul without the piece that resides in Harry (supposing he should ever feel remorse) and Harry can't live a whole life without getting rid of the piece of Voldemort's soul inside him....

So the prophecy remains value just tells things how they actually are without being affected by what people do to try to avert the prophecy or make it come true. In the way that Oedipus in Greek mythology (I think) did everything he could to prevent a prophecy from being fulfilled and by his very action, caused it to be fulfilled.

Bit long winded...but there you are!

Posted by Joe from England on September 28, 2007 06:06 AM

Patricia, I would love it that way: Dumbledore having planned that Snape would be protected by the elder wand. But unfortunately that was not Dumbledore's plan. Harry explained that Dumbledore intended to the wand's last true master. Because Snape had agreed to Dumbledore to help him, Snape didn't in any way defeat him, and thus Snape wouldn't have become the wand's new master, but the wand's power would have d with Dumbledore (if Draco hadn't disarmed him).

quote: "Aren't you listening? Snape never beat Dumbledore! Dumbledore's was planned between them! Dumbledore intended to undefeated, the wand's last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand's power would have d with him, because it had never been won from him!" (Harry to Voldemort in "The Flaw in the Plan")

Posted by Sara from Finland on September 29, 2007 05:00 AM

Joe, Very nice explanation. I have a problem with the same phrase as you. That's the part that seems to not come true, to me.

However, it could mean that Harry is determined to vanquish Voldemort, and vice versa. That there is nothing compelling them to "fight to the " except their own , and so they fulfill the prophecy because they know of the prophecy.

So in this way, I see your point, that the prophecy describes events as they happen in DH.

Posted by Patty from Quincy MA on September 29, 2007 1:06 PM

I totally agree with you! Thanks for explaining the prophecy so well. I also have problems with the "neither can live while the other survives" part, but I think your explanation is pretty good.
I think the most important part that foreshadows the future as it really was is "either must at the hand of the other" which foreshadows the scenes in the forbidden forest and the last battle.

Posted by pigwidgeon28 from Austria on September 30, 2007 04:38 AM

Joe: Awesome explanation of the prophecy!

Posted by Alice from Milton on September 30, 2007 12:38 PM

Here's a question I haven't seen brought up. Voldemort said only he knew of the Room of Requirement as only 'he had plumbed the deepest secrets of that place'.

How could he think that as Draco worked all year in the Room of Requirement to bring Eaters into Hogwarts? Wouldn't someone have told him how they gained entry into Hogwarts? Surely he must have known how Draco, as well as Harry, knew about the room and would have feared for his hidden Horcrux?

Also, how did Voldemort get his original wand back after he lost his body trying to Harry as a baby? Did Eaters creep in and grab his body and wand?

Posted by Carol from Bedford, Texas on September 30, 2007 7:45 PM

Pettigrew got the wand of yew, JKR said so. However, whether he got it after PoA or before he faked his the first time, I'm not sure.

Speaking of which, suppose there was a sequel that had to do with the wand of yew...

Posted by C.J. from Utah on October 1, 2007 9:37 PM

"neither can live while the other survives" indicates that most probably, while both being alive, one of them would always try to the other, until one of them become ed. It was true!

Think about it: Voldemort couldn�t live while Harry was still alive; and Harry�s too, he was so anxious and afraid of even thinking about ing Voldemort.

Both of them would not "start living" until the other s.
Of course, it�s just an opinnion...

Posted by Go Snape Go from buenos aires on October 3, 2007 12:58 PM

Your points are well taken but I happen to disagree with both your assumptions from your comment of Sept 29, that the power of the Elder wand would if the wand is undefeated, and that Harry understood all of Dumbledore's plan.

Harry often was left in the dark, as Snape was about the role of the wand, so it is possible his interpretation was "flawed". Dumbledore, as usual, let Harry work things out for himself in King's Cross, without a lot of help.

As to the power of the Elder Wand, I don't think that much power would just give up. According to Ollivander, the wand chooses the wizard. If the owner of the wand s a natural , never having been defeated as the original brother d, then maybe the wand's power would dissipate before it was found, but in the situation on the tower with a sudden at the hand of another wizard, I think the wand would naturally transfer it's ownership to the wizard who won. This would have been Snape's protection.
Your points about Snape's right to know are very convincing, but I think Dumbledore's mistake was thinking that Voldemort would use a wand against Snape, giving Snape the advantage.

I think the question might be how far did Dumbledore's trust of Snape really go? Snape was aware of the cloak. He helped Dumbledore after the ring ened his hand, and maybe would have figured out about the stone once he knew of the significance of the wand. Could Dumbledore take the chance that Snape could walk away from the power of all three? Dumbledore could not even trust himself that much.

Posted by Patty from Quincy MA on October 4, 2007 06:24 AM

Pages:  <<  <  75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 ...  >  >>

Featured Discussions | The Septology | Harry's World | Harry Potter Movies | Dumbeldore Is Not Dead | FAQ is not affiliated with or approved by
Scholastic Books, Bloomsbury, Warner Bros., or J.K. Rowling
Original Content Copyright © 2006-2010 David Haber, All Rights Reserved