Severus Snape v. The Ministry of Magic
by J.K. Rich
After reading Book Six in the Harry Potter saga, millions of Harry Potter fans were devastated to learn that after it all�after all the warnings and signs�Severus Snape is, in fact, evil. And, even more devastating�he had killed Professor Dumbledore right in front of The Boy That Lived. Or did he?
> Read the full article
Pages: << < 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 > >>
Reader Comments: (Page 17)
Not sure of the exact wording but twice on the tower while talking to Draco and the Eaters Dumbledore refers to himself being back at Hogwarts "in a way" or "after a fashion" or something along those lines. The person on the tower is not Dumbledore as previously known. Whether this means he s or not I don't know but that potion has done something to him.
Posted by Rob from Portsmouth on June 13, 2007 04:45 AM
Emilio � I agree. We have �atypical� members of many types of beings that would normally be on Voldemort�s side or neutral who are loyal to Albus. (I guess it would be the Order, or more specifically Harry, now.)
Atypical House Elf: Dobby
Atypical Centaur: Firenze
Atypical Giant: Grawp
Atypical Werewolf: Remus
And, although goblins have shown some resistance to choosing sides, the ones to whom they have been associated most with (like Bill, for instance) are �good� guys, and, as you say, we know by how much the subject is covered in History, that they can hold their own.
Posted by Monkeeshrines from Orlando fl on June 13, 2007 07:56 AM
I continue to want to believe that Snape is one of the good guys and that Dumbledore is not . However, my second reading of Book #6 has me wondering. As I said in an earlier post, I find it difficult to reconcile Snape's treatment of Harry--especially when they are alone--with the idea that Snape is on Dumbledore's side due to remorse over Snape's role in the of Harry's parents. Please allow me to provide a devil's advocate view of Snape's role as double (triple?) agent that came to me recently--I would be very interested in any comments:
What if Dumbledore had known all along that Snape was actually working for Voldemort and was providing Voldemort with inside information on the Order of the Phoenix, etc.? Dumbledore may have felt that "the double agent you know about is better than the one you don't"--he could feed Snape with false information or otherwise control the information Snape received and passed to Voldemort. Dumbledore couldn't have done that if he exposed Snape and Voldemort might then have been successful in recruiting a different double (triple?) agent Dumbledore wasn't aware of. Under this theory, because Snape is so good at legilimency, Dumbledore would have to tell everyone in the Order and Harry that he trusts Snape implicitly to make sure that Snape would never be able to read someone's thoughts about a conversation in which Dumbledore revealed that he knows Snape is a double (triple?) agent for Voldemort--Dumbledore could tell no one for fear that Snape would find out he had been burned.
After hearing Harry's description of Snape's role in Dumbledore's "", various members of the Order of the Phoenix and the Hogwarts faculty recall that they had suspected Snape but had always been convinced he was a good guy by Dumbledore's statements. Might this also tie in with the above devil's advocate theory?
Posted by Place from Tokyo on June 13, 2007 9:56 PM
Snape is good or bad? I have always vouched for him and the amazing theories from all the fans here just proves it beyond any doubt.
But, last night I had this thought about Lily's sacrifice. JKR said that Lily's sacrifice was 'special' because she was given a choice by Voldemort but she chose to . Now, why would Voldemort give her a choice in the first place? He's aware that Lily is in the Order and obviously working against him. So, why spare her? Does Voldemort really care to commit another to get Harry out of his way?
After much thinking I realised, yes! Because of SNAPE! We all know that Snape revealed the part-prophecy to Voldemort and maybe Snape WAS aware that the prophecy was about Lily's son. He must have requested Voldemort to spare Lily as we know why. JKR herself has said that there's a big difference between James' & Lily's . Why? Because Lily was given a choice and the only reason I can think of why she was given a choice is because of Snape. James d dueling Voldemort but Lily just sacrificed without any resistance because Voldemort wanted to keep her alive on Snape's request (giving a little gratitude to his faithful servant for revealing a crucial prophecy maybe?). But Lily was determined to for her son and Voldemort obviously didn't give a damn and got her out of his way too.
So, if this is the case, then how can Snape be good, when he lead James (whom he apparently owed a life ) to his ? Maybe after realising what happened to Lily he switched sides because he wanted Lily to be with him and not James? Who knows but this subject is definitely worth giving a thought.
Posted by no0r from india on June 14, 2007 03:12 AM
Place from Tokyo,
It is an interesting theory, but as far as we know Snape is involved in most, if not all, the Order meetings in the headquarters (12 Grimauld Place), which would make it difficult to conceal information from him.
It is true that Order members and Faculty are truly shocked to hear about Snape's involvement in Dumbledore's , so it stands to reason that they never expected this because "Dumbledore trusted him implicitly", so they would never conceal Order business from him, thus making it possible for Severus to pass on all kinds of information to The Dark Lord, if he wished to. If Dumbledore had suspected Snape then he would have told key members of the order so they could guard their thoughts around Severus. It is true that Snivelus is a good Legimens, but it also appears to be an even better Oclumens.
In order to conceal things from him you would have to use Oclumency, whish apparently nobody did. This would lead me to conclude that Dumbledore never suspected him, or at least never told of his suspicions to any of the Order or Faculty members that we have been in contact since Albus' .
This would contradict your speculation that Dumbledore suspected Snape.
Posted by Emilio from Mexico City, Mexico on June 14, 2007 11:46 AM
Emilio--great explanation--all very good points.
Posted by Place from Tokyo on June 14, 2007 8:27 PM
noor: I agree with you on the fact Voldemort gave the choice to Lily, and on the other side, I can't imagine one second that he did anything on Snape's request. If he wanted to let Lily alive, he had a personal good reason to do so, and since he was not able to love her, he probably needed her for some reason.
Posted by herve from strasbourg on June 14, 2007 10:49 PM
I think it would be a bit out of character for Voldemort to spare anyone's life at the request of what he considers to be one of his peons. What favors does he owe Severus? Why would he spare a known enemy and "Mudblood" just for one of his servants?
"My Lord, when you go to the Potters, please spare the woman."
"What is this? You want me to spare the Mudblood, the mother of the one who would defeat me? One of those who have evaded my wrath already three times? Crucio!"
Doesn't exactly work. Gratitude for revealing the prophesy? I'm thinking that when Peter gave Voldemort his body back, the first thing Voldemort did was use magic to lift him up and slam him to the ground, call his other followers, chatting to Harry in the meantime, and left Peter lying on the ground with a bloody stump of a hand while Voldemort had a pleasant little conversation with himself for what was probably a good five or ten minutes, tortured a couple of his people, before telling Peter he deserved the pain, and only when it was advantageous for him - that is in the presence of all his followers so they could see - did he finally give him his silver hand. How's that for gratitude? I agree with herve that there is some significant reason for Voldemort sparing Lily; he would not do such a thing arbitrarily. But I do not think it was simply at Severus' request.
Posted by Monkeeshrines from orlando fl on June 15, 2007 07:16 AM
I think that many of the points made are very relevant to the idea the Snape did not in fact "enjoy" ing Dumbledore. But I have another theory.
I believe that Dumbledore in fact has d, or at least the Professor that we have gotten to know is. I think he knew that the only way for Snape to regain the trust of Voldemort and the full respect of the inner circle of Eaters was something huge that would cause Voldemort to have to believe he is truly genuine. As a result of this Dumbledore asked Snape if he was prepared to do whatever it took to help ensure the success of the order and his not being found out as a spy. I think Snape was mostly arguing that he didn't want to rejoin the Eaters and he was getting in so deep that he was having trouble "breathing". I think that when Dumbledore d it was only because Snape knew it was what he wanted and that it was the only way.
Now Dumbledore return in another form, I don't know, but J.K. said herself that Dumbledore is in fact . Now as for Snape, I think this is going to be the beginning of the end for him. I have a feeling that his to James be a big part of book 7 and that he in fact sacrifice himself for Harry.
Posted by merlin_rev on June 15, 2007 10:59 AM
When Bellatrix and Narcissa visit Snape, Bellatrix asks him why he doesn't tell the order's whereabouts, and Snape says he's not the secret keeper. but can't Voldemort use his legilimency ss to get the answers he needs? personally i believe Snape is a traitor but if he used occlumency to protect his mind from voldemort that gets me thinking...
Posted by Prongs from Athens,Greece on June 15, 2007 3:39 PM
Prongs: I always assumed that the fidelius charm didn't simply prevent you from divulging the secret, instead, it actually causes you not to know the secret in the first place. So, there would be nothing to find if someone used occulmency on someone who, for example, had actually been to 12 Grimmauld Place, but who was not the secret keeper...
Posted by Dave Haber from Los Angeles, CA on June 15, 2007 4:08 PM
My question is if that is how the Fidelius charm works, then how would the Order members ever be able to find 12 Grimmauld Place or even remeber that it was there? And once the Secret Keeper revealed the location so they can find it, it would be in their mind and available to be picked up by Legimancy, wouldn't it? Unless it causes you to not "able to reveal" the secret. This would protect it even if it regardless of how it is attempted to be communicated or retrieved.
Posted by Seyah from SLC on June 15, 2007 4:35 PM
Pages: << < 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 > >>