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Dumbledore Is Not !
by David Haber
Well... maybe not. At least, I don't think he is. Snape's betrayal and the of Dumbledore caught me completely by surprise. Dumbledore was , and on top of that, Snape had done it. And all of the clues point to two possibilities, that Dumbledore's not really , or at the very least, that Snape's not really a Eater, and he Dumbledore because Dumbledore ordered him to, as part of a grand plan.
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Reader Comments: (Page 14)
My personal belief is that Dumbledore is not truely , or at least he would leave things behind to help Harry in some way or another... maybe Fawkes, or something else... I mean, whenever Harry confronted Voldemort, Dumbledore never helped him directly; except in the duel in Book V. Help almost always comes from Dumbledore in other forms, such as the invisibility cloak, Fawkes, the Sorting Hat and the Sword, and even Fawke's feather in Harry's wand. So no, the revival of Dumbledore, whether in person or as a shade, is not necessary for Dumbledore to continue to assist Harry; although he could still do that... but if he came back as a shade, it would seem too much of a Star Wars ripoff. I believe if he did assist Harry personally, it would be that he never was really .
Posted by Toxicologist from Azkaban on November 29, 2006 6:22 PM
I think I didn't read this one on the site already:
Rowling says on her own site that AD� patronus is a Phoenix. She also says (you can find this in the HPB as well) that the members of the order uses their patronuses to communicate with each other.
Is it a possibility that, when � a phoenix fly�s out of the white smoke� during the , it is the patronus from AD to inform the members of the phoenix?
Does your patronus vanish when your ? And does that mean AD �s not really , cause� his patronus is still there? Or is it a clue that he is indeed, and he�s patronus fly�s into the blue, because of that?
Posted by Charlotte on November 30, 2006 07:06 AM
I have been thouroughly enjoying my 'Half-Blood Prince therapy' and many of your revelations have made me say AHA! but there is one topic that no one has mentioned yet. (I think) What about when Harry and Dumbledore are Horcrux-hunting, and Dumbledore drinks the unknown potion? Dumbledore's rantings add a really scary edge to the scene, but the little flags popped up when I read them the second time (the first time I was shivering too hard to notice).
Dumbledore's screams become more and more disturbing the more of the potion he drinks,and near the last one he says "No, don't hurt them, hurt me instead" and finally "KILL ME".
I don't think these are random or meaningless (is anything ever?). I think the potion was somehow making him relive his worst memory, or maybe his worst fear. One theory that immediatly jumped in my mind, was that it sounded a bit like Lily and James's , as if Dumbledore was trying to protect them (don't hurt them, hurt me instead) Dumbledore was the one who told Harry about that night for the first time. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...the only people that witnessed the happen are either d or are currently leading the wrong side of the war or were one year old at the time. Right? So how would Dumbledore know details like how his father d first, and how his mother d trying to save him, unless he was there. In fact.. Dumbledore's 'don't hurt them..' is strikingly similar to Lily Potter's ' me instead' plea to Voldemort. Maybe there is more to that night than there seems. And this might have something to do with Harry's visit-to-come to Godric's Hollow in the 7th book.
any theories people?
Posted by Anonymous on December 1, 2006 8:10 PM
OK, now you all think I've lost it entirely. but I can't seem to get the idea out of my head that James (and maybe Lily too) survived, and that Snape is actually James in disguise. I know it sounds crazy, but if were in very deep cover, and this were the ONLY way he could save his son.....I know that JR said that Harry would never see his parents alive, but I keep getting this vibe. James would know how to alter the marauder's map, so that's not an issue for me. I could name all the real issues, but I keep wondering, and not accepting the explanations that Harry doesn't see the thestrals till after Sirius is ed. I know it's supposed to be that as a baby he didn't see, (though he heard) his parents' s. But I don't buy it. Ever since the story of Peter Pettigrew becoming a rat and escaping, I have wondered about this. I have toyed with many ideas, that Snape (the real one) and someone else (i don't know who) offered themselves to serve as substitutes for James and Lily. I think there is something very fishy about the sudden switch from Sirius to PP as the secret-keeper, and I have wondered if it weren't a trap for Voldemort. Probably reading more into this than JR intended, but I wanted to say it here, just in case by some weird thing, I'm right! Keep dreaming!
Posted by Jane from San Francisco, ca on December 1, 2006 9:11 PM
I have been doing a lot of thinking about this, and come to somewhat of a conclusion. Let's just theoretically say that Dumbledore was hit by the AK curse, and he is . It seems to me that JKR wrote this into the book because it expresses her own deep seeded fears. She has said that her biggest fear in life is losing a loved one. I would say that my biggest fears aren't that far off from hers. With that said, I believe it is possible that JKR wanted to have Dumbledore , simply to show herself and her readers how people live on within us. If DD really is , I think we see Harry actually having a "piece" of DD left in him. Maybe Harry be more powerful now, just as he was given a "power" when Lily d for Harry.
I think we see DD's portrait in the 7th book explaining to Harry how those "you" love live on through "you". I can't say that I believe DD is , because I have argued this fact for so many months to everyone, but assuming DD is indeed , this explination makes a lot of sense.
Posted by Brett J. from Boulder, CO on December 4, 2006 07:37 AM
As I've been reading through each post (I finally reached the end) I've had thoughts that were eventually touched on. One of the ones I held onto last was finally touched on by Anonymous on December 1st. I recently re-read HBP and, like Anonymous, I also was struck by the comments that Dumbledore made while he was drinking the potion. It seemed to me that he was re-living someone elses memory, not his own. In fact, I was immediately compelled to believe that he was re-living Severus Snape's memory of the Potter's being ed. Remember how after drinking the potion he said, "Its all my fault, its all my fault", " me, not them". He also says something like, "Don't make me.." and "Make it stop". This could be another reason Dumbledore insists on seeing Snape when they return to Hogwarts, and why he has the pleading in his voice when he sees him. (Take that where you might, I have no clue).
Another possibility is that it was a memory of Regulus Black experiencing the event which caused him to betray Voldemort (that's oozing with speculation, sorry, but I'm trying to cover the bases:)
I also think it is possibly very important to note that one person could not have been able to drink all of the potion protecting the locket alone (and if they couldn't drink all of the potion, they couldn't get the locket). Remember Dumbledore even mentioned this to Harry. If indeed R.A.B. was able to obtain the locket from this same cave, he had to have an accomplice...unless he was somehow assigned the task of placing the locket within the cave, in which case he could have switched them ahead of time. (I don't think he could have switched them if Voldemort put the locket directly in, because Voldemort would have recognized the difference). So this leaves two possibilities in my opinion: R.A.B had an accomplice or he somehow switched this locket with the original before it was placed in the cave.
So, if any of this could be true, then what do these memories mean, and (maybe) more importantly, why is Dumbledore experiencing them? I think that's a key question we should try and figure out the answer to.
Also, for starters I think we all can bank on the fact that R.A.B. stands for Regulus A. Black (this is supported in other translations which, when they use the word for black (the color), the initials on the note change to match the word in that language for "black". For example, Wikipedia mentions that R.A.Z. is used in the Dutch version, which is interesting since the Dutch word for the name Black in the book is Zwarts.
So Regulus left the note, and he probably left it after the prophecy was known to Voldemort since he mentions in the note "in the hope that when you meet your match, you be mortal once more." (He knew b/c of the prophecy that one was coming, but who else knew this? Snape..Voldemort, and of course Dumbledore. Since it seems obvious that Dumbledore had never been in the cave before, this could mean that Snape was an accomplice in the cave if he shared the prophecy with Regulus, and also that Snape knows about the Horcruxes.)
Anyone else thinking along these lines?
Posted by Eric W from Mt. Pleasant, MI on December 4, 2006 10:11 AM
I think you have a very good point: how can RAB drink the potion all by himself?
I don't think Snape helped him, because the boat could hold only 1 person (Harry�s a kid so he doesn't count).
I personally believe a house-elf helped him. Perhaps RAB even made the elf drink the potion, so it wouldn't hurt him. A house-elf wouldn't count as a person, so he could made it to the island by boat.
I also think the memory wasn't from Dumbledore himself, I believe it was from the kids Riddle took to the cave. Maybe Dumbledore felt he must help them.
Could anybody respond to my patronus theory?:-) I'm very curious 'bout your opinions!
Posted by Charlotte on December 4, 2006 11:03 AM
The house-elf thing is an interesting idea. I do, however, think it would have been possible for another person to have crossed by the boat, they just had to go one at a time. Since the boat measured magical maturity, I don't know how a house-elf would register (although it is highly possible that Voldemort wouldn't have even considered them in his protective spell). Since the Black's house-elf was Kreature, it seems like that would have to mean he was the one that went with Regulus, and I would find that surprising, but possible. I still think Dumbledore is experiencing a memory that might not be his own, and I never thought of the kids Tom Riddle had brought into the cave. That's interesting, but they would have been grown up by the time that Voldemort got the locket.
Posted by Eric W. from Mt. Pleasant, MI on December 4, 2006 1:01 PM
That was great sleuthing work of you. It is really a pity that Dumbledore did not tell Harry what he SAW in that DREAM while drinking the potion.
After finishing reading your comment, I re-read these lines from the HBP Chapter Twenty Six the Cave. What if that dream was a MEMORY left there by Snape?
But how can we explain it to make it sensible and bringing Regulus into the game?
We can assume that Regulus Black went to Hogwarts School about one or two years later than Sirius. It is certain that he was in Slytherin house and met Severus Snape. Could they have been friends, although it says that Snape was a loner? Or they had something in common, like hating Sirius?
It is a known fact; that both of them joined the Eaters. I can only speculate that at one point Regulus got cold feet, as Sirius said to Harry. In his distress he went to Snape just like Draco did. Snape being the one who told Voldemort of the Prophecy, had found out that the Potter�s had been betrayed by Pettigrew.
What if Voldemort PLAYED the same nasty trick on Snape, (Harry anyone.?.) making him see Lily DIE, if Snape refused to do something for him? Is that why Snape says to Harry in OotP: Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions� and so on. We should not forget that Snape was about sixteen years younger when this happened and was not as experienced a wizard as he is now!
So both Snape and Regulus would have had a reason to want to quit being in Voldemorts team. Snape, because of Lily and Regulus because of his brother Sirius! What their battle-plan was, that�s too deep for me at the moment. Maybe Kreacher ccame into the play?
We have some amazing people on this site who come up with great ideas. Is there someone out there who can continue this thread? Jo can you hear us?
Posted by Mistral from Switzerland on December 4, 2006 1:09 PM
Eric, Mistral, et al: I also think that Dumbledore's words while drinking the potion are very important, and that the potion itself is very important. And remember how Dumbledore keeps insisting to Harry that Snape is the one he needs to see? Does Snape have an antidote? I also think this speculation about Godric's Hollow is spot on! There is more to that story than we yet know, and Snape is the key.
My latest wild theory concerns the use of a timeturner (though I know not why) in the broom ride from Hogsmead to the Tower. (Harry sees Dumbledore "clutch his chest" at one point--just after they arrive?). My textual reason for wondering about this is that as soon as they see the Dark Mark, all Dumbledore's questions are about time, "When did this happen?" etc. It would explain why he froze Harry, and insisted he keep hidden too (remember in PoA how he keeps telling Harry and Hermione "you cannot be seen"). I just wonder if he didn't move things forward about one turn, in order to get there before Draco s him and talk him out of it. The rationale would be that Draco ing him would make Draco a eater, subject to You-Konw-Who, and Dumbledore desperately does not want that for some reason. Any thoughts?
Posted by Jane from San Francisco on December 4, 2006 5:03 PM
The timeturner theory seems right, but JK emphasis that there aren't any timeturners used..
I think AD froze Harry cause he didn�t want him to do anything. Perhaps because his plan was to be ed, it sounds awful but I think he�s . I believe Harry eventually has to LV all by his self. That�s what the prophecy told us.
I assume AD give him instructions true his portrait in the headmasters room. Isn�t it interesting Kreature took orders from Sirius� mother�s portrait down at GP? I do believe this is a great clue! It learns us that portraits are important and that they actually �live a little� 'cause they have there one identity. The identity of the one who�s painted.
Differently from a photograph that only waves, a portrait in fact does talk and maybe more important: it can think. AD could really help Harry the same way he did before. Think about it. The only time he actually helped Harry in person was in OoP. The other times he gave him instructions ore objects that helped him.
Harry could tell him al his �adventure�s� and they could discuss them anyway, although it�s not in person.
Still is do hope he�s not really gone...
What do you all think about this?
Posted by Charlotte on December 5, 2006 03:34 AM
thats a good idea!
i dont know if its right though. if the portraits have a mind,- i just lost my train of thought. oh well.
its a great idea though!
Posted by dumbledore from hogwarts on December 5, 2006 2:45 PM
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