Search Beyond Hogwarts:
by David Haber
These are some of the clues contained in the pages of Harry Pottter and the Half-Blood Prince which support the possibility that Dumbledore is not really , or at least Snape Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders, and that everything that happened that night was planned well in advance by Dumbledore himself.
> Read the full article
Pages: << < 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 > >>
Reader Comments: (Page 22)
A lot of people think that Dumbledore suffers pain in the cave because he is saying: "Do not hurt them..." but I think that HE's not the one who's having pain, but Neville's parents had pain at the moment Dumbledore remembers this! Because I read a couple of comments on the site of JKR and she answers on a question: "I can't say to much about it, because it is coming too close to the prophecy and HOW MANY PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT IT!"
I think Dumbledore told Neville's parents about the prophecy to warn them and that a couple of eaters tried to get it out of them. This would be in fact Dumbledore's fault that they got hurt, but did not (even though they are not better off)! Dumbledore knew about the prophecy so he could have thought, when he heard about it: "Why haven't they used me for the information?", and I think that that could be the memory Dumbledore is suffering about in the cave!
Posted by klimmer42 from Delft, zuid-holland, Holland on April 17, 2007 12:32 PM
the order of the PHOENIX was first created when Voldemort was first at large-then REBORN shortly after he was. Maybe it's members also have this power - including Sirius.
Another thing - if dumbledore is he has an extra person's to avenge. Maybe his parents, his godfather and cedric isn't enough for a 17 year old to get revenge for isn't enough.
Posted by Rebekah from Birmingham on April 21, 2007 06:24 AM
If the members of the Order of the Phoenix have the power to be reborn... that would mean that everyone is expendable and sacrifices would be meaningless. I highly doubt this is the case.
Posted by Monkeeshrines from orlando fl on April 23, 2007 09:00 AM
You must remember something crucial, that denies the possibility of Snape not really ing Dumbledore...he had made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, thereby ensuring that he would have d if he had pretended to cast Avada Kedavra...perhaps Dumbledore flying off the tower could have been himself using wandless magic? Lupin's done it before....
Posted by Nathan Goble from Evansville, IN on April 24, 2007 8:31 PM
We have to go through something not very pleasant for us, as readers, but very much acceptable as humans: Voldemort seeks for immortality because he is eager for material power and afraid of , while the members of the order of the phoenix accept their human mortal condition. What Dumbledore summarizes in saying that is another great experience. I totally agree with Monkeeshrines on this point.
Snape did the move that ended in Dumbledore's ; as a result, Dumbledore is . I'm not sure though that Snape conjured an Avada Kedavra: ing someone innocent with AK would be unforgivable (and Snape told Harry just afterwards not to use Unforgivable Curses); if Dumbledore was just thrown out of the tower, then he could decide by himself whether he would or not.
Posted by herve from strasbourg on April 25, 2007 08:05 AM
Herve, I have to disagree with you about Snape ing Dumbledore. I think he made the Vow, and accepted the fact of having to Dumbledore. He knows it is unforgivable and his fate is now sealed -- fugitive, or prisoner. This is the reason for the look on his face when he performed the curse.
Posted by Patty from Quincy MA on April 26, 2007 07:33 AM
I agree with everything. It all adds up. And besides, Snape has always been the good guy, helping Dumbledore, saving Harry, why would he just give up doing that? Another clue: In chapter 19, page 405-406, Hagrid accidently lets it slip that Dumbledore's angry with Snape. Hagrid says that Snape says that he didn't want to do it anymore... Maybe Snape didn't want to "" Dumbledore and Dumbledore was angry at him for trying to back off. Dumbledore told him flat out "he'd agreed to do it and that was all there was to it".
Posted by Kaela Noble from Pittsburg, CA on April 26, 2007 7:35 PM
There has been a lot of postings on time travel. In HBP, Dumbledore shows Harry a lot of memories. Two of them in particular seem like they may have been gotten by Dumbledore when he was time traveling. If we believe that Dumbledore didn't begin to suspect Horcuxes until the end of COS, or GOF then we should also believe that Dumbledore had no reason to go looking for these memories until very recently.
The Bob Ogden memory is interesting in that the events that are recalled happened at least 50 years ago, as Tom Riddle ed his father and grandparents and got Marvolo's ring while he was still at Hogwarts. Dumbledore tells Harry that Bob Ogden d "some time ago", but not before Dumbledore had a chance to retrive this memory. Now, typically, "some time ago" would not mean "recently", it would be vague, but generally mean longer than the recent past. Also, assuming Bob Ogden was not a very young man at the time of the encounter, he would have been at least in his 80's or older, if Dumbledore had recently retrieved that memory. Very lucky indeed for Dumbledore to have found such a man and got his memory before he d.
The next memory, I think is even more interesting. This memory is from Hipzapah Smith's house elf. This memeory had to take place at least 45 years ago, as Riddle was now out of school and working at B&B;'s. Dumbledore tells Harry much the same story, that he tracked down the elf who gave up the memory just before she d. In the memory Harry describes seeing "the oldest House elf he had ever seen" and in fact the elf was convicted of accidentally poisoning Hipzabah because Riddle had modified her memory and she was described as old and confused. Now, assuming the this elf, who was convicted, would have gone to some sort of prison, if not actually Azkaban, it is highly unlikely she would have lasted until the last year or so to give Dumbledore the memory he needed. It seems more likely that Dumbledore researched when each had d, and went back to the time just before they d and retrieved these memories. Might well explain where Dumbledore had gone when he was "away" from the castle for long stretches of HBP.
On another note, I am rereading GOF and it seems a bit farfetched that Fred and George would bet everything they had on Ireland winning, but Krum getting the snitch, unless they had inside information. It may be that they have a time turner as well. Just the kind of thing they would have managed to get their hands on and keep it to themselves. Maybe that was the real reason they felt they could give Harry the Maraurders map, they now had something better.
Posted by Ed from Naperville, Illinois on May 1, 2007 07:52 AM
Its a very detailed and convincing site. I notice that you have taken serious notes on many things, even JK's speech. The name of the Chapter is a good touch, The Flight Of The Prince - Dumbledore's 'Flight'. It could indicate Dumbledore being the half-blood prince, even though we are told it really isn't. Rowling uses clues and mysteries in her work to get our blood flowing and heart pumping. When they say that Harry in the last chapter of HBP during the thought of all the people that have tried to protect him and d. His parents, Sirius, Dumbledore, but notice how all of these people Harry don't really know what had happened to them. His parents: all he remembers was a flash of green light, Sirius: just vanished through the curtain, dumbledore just fell over off tower from a spell not meant for dropping dread not flinging across room. Good job getting the info and explaining it i loved it.
Posted by Ashley M from Toronto, Canada on May 1, 2007 3:03 PM
I've got an other Dumbledore clue. I think that it is very interesting to compare the last paragraph pg 601 book 6: "bright, white flames had erupted around dumbledore's body"... And the moment in book 5 when Dumbledore escape from his office with the phoenix (the last page of chapter 27 in the french book). it seems to me that exactly the same thing is happening, we've got the flames, the phoenix and Dumbledore invisible... these strange shapes could be Dumbledore flying with the phoenix.
Posted by clarisse from Paris_France on May 2, 2007 06:44 AM
I agree the potion in the cave is causing Dumbledore to relive a memory...either one of his or someone elses.
If it it one of Dumbledore's then he could be either the person experiencing the pain, i.e. the person speaking, or he could be the person causing the pain. (He could also possibly be one of the "them" referred to i.e. a witness to the events)
If he is the one experiencing the pain this raises the question of who would he be frightened of like this (Harry says he has never heard Dumbledore frightened) and who would have the power to torture Dumbledore? (It sounds like the person is experiencing the cruciatus curse at the end)...I think only Voldemort and it would be very unlikely that this is a memory of Voldemort torturing Dumbledore. (The other possibility is that it is a memory from Dumbledore's past perhaps involving Grindelwald...but I think this is a long shot).
This makes me think that Dumbledore is not the one speaking in the memory. Could he be the one causing the pain? Would Dumbledore ever be angry enough with someone to torture them with the cruciatus curse....perhaps if they had revealed the prophecy against his wishes? I don't know....it doesn't fit with Dumbledore's character...I can't see him being the one to cause this kind of pain to anyone. And if he did, I can't imagine him threatening to hurt the "them" referred to in the memory.
So this makes me think that either Dumbledore was a witness to the events in the memory, either he was there or the memory belongs to someone else who showed it to him later...It sounds like Voldemort (or possibly another of the eaters) torturing someone who has gone against his wishes. Could it be Snape? Is Voldemort angry with him for warning the Potters? or refusing to participate in their ? or telling the prophecy to someone else? In which case who does the "them" refer to?
OR is it the person who warned Dumbledore that Voldemort was coming after the Potters? We don't know for sure that this was Snape?
Posted by Joe from England on May 10, 2007 03:10 AM
I think Dobby is the most underrated clue here.
In CoS (pg 399 paperback) "I've just got one question, Dobby"... "You told me all this had nothing to do with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, remember?"... "Was giving you a clue. The Dark Lord, before he changed his name, could be freely named, you see?"
This refers to the beginning of the book: (pg 17) "Slowly, Dobby shook his head. 'Not -- not He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named' But Dobby's eyes were wide and he seemed to be trying to give Harry a hint."
From the article, "Back in chapter nineteen, when Harry orders Dobby and Kreacher to follow Malfoy around in an effort to figure out what he was up to, Dobby replies:
"Yes, Harry Potter!" said Dobby at once, his great eyes shining with excitement. "And if Dobby does it wrong, Dobby throw himself off the topmost tower, Harry Potter!" (HBP pg 422/395)"
What is Dobby implying here? Is Dobby present, invisibly, during the scene? We know he has special powers, could he also make himself invisible like Dumbledore without a cloak? I think it's a reach, but both Dobby and Snape could have cast the Expelliarmus spell that knocked Dumbledore off the tower to the same effect the the trio shouted the spell at Snape in PoA. I'm under the impression multiple people need to cast the spell in order to have the added effect of a knockdown. Dobby's strangely construed hint could be that he knock someone off the tower should it appear he has not followed Malfoy. As far as Harry can see Dobby was not present on the Tower.
Posted by Deebs from Sedona, AZ on May 10, 2007 6:52 PM
Pages: << < 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 > >>