Beyond Hogwarts

Search Beyond Hogwarts:

Reference Desk:
Beyond Hogwarts FAQ
Wizard to Muggle Currency Converter
Harry Potter Spelling Reference

Dumbledore Clues

by David Haber

These are some of the clues contained in the pages of Harry Pottter and the Half-Blood Prince which support the possibility that Dumbledore is not really , or at least Snape Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders, and that everything that happened that night was planned well in advance by Dumbledore himself.

> Read the full article

Pages:  <<  <  10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30  >  >>

Reader Comments: (Page 20)

Yes, ultimately, Snape carry out Dumbledore's plan, but he have to improvise and ad lib as the situation requires it, especially to overcome Harry's mistrust of him. Snape may be in a position to defeat Voldemort, but Harry attacks Snape, who turns to defend himself, then s at the hand of Voldemort, leaving Harry alone to fight the final battle. After Harry wins (of course) Hermione discovers evidence of Snape's true loyalty to Dumbledore and Harry realises his error. But this is all foretold in the prophecy -- Harry has to face the Dark Lord alone so Snape never had a chance.
I think that Snape's presence at the speaking of the prophecy foreshadows his presence at the final showdown.
Maybe this is Dumbledore's ironclad reason for trusting Snape, despite his mistrust of Divination. He understood the power of prophecy as a force to compel people to act in certain ways. The cast of characters was set -- Snape and the three people mentioned in the prophecy, that is, the Dark Lord and the two possible boys who could vanquish him. Trelawney as the speaker and Dumbledore as the witness were incidental characters. And actually, that would mean that the barman also be there. Dumbledore might have taken it upon himself to convert Snape to the side of good so Harry would have an ally when he needed one.
Mikey, your comments always get to the heart of the matter. Your questions are succinct and point me to the next step of my theories. Keep it up.

Posted by Patty from Quincy,Massachusetts on March 18, 2007 05:18 AM

In Order of the Phoenix when dumbledore is explaining harry why he didnt tell him about the prophecy, dumbledore said that he cared of harry so much that his plan may be ruined, aha! what plan? maybe dumbledore had prepared all, including his . maybe everything was made by dumbledore all harry's life, and harry is only a doll in a bigger game, what if? I dunno, what do you think this plan may be?

Posted by Agnes from Legnica, Poland on March 20, 2007 09:50 AM

I think you are right on the money about Dumbledore having a plan, with Harry being the unwitting puppet playing his role. I think Dumbledore set the plan in motion based on the prophecy, using Snape to tell a piece of the prophecy to Voldemort. The prophecy was useless unless someone knew of it and acted on it. Dumbledore made sure Voldemort heard enough to choose an adversary to mark as his equal. I wonder if Dumbledore actually pointed him toward the Potters or if Voldemort came to that conclusion himself. Why did Voldemort wait 15 months to attack? From my understanding the Potters made Wormtail their Secret Keeper, then went into hiding and within a matter of days or maybe hours, Voldemort attacked. Why weren't the Potters hiding before then?
And why were the Longbottoms tortured by the Lestranges to reveal the location of Voldemort? Why did the Eaters think they might know something?
I think it all points to Dumbledore arranging the whole setup.
When Harry hears there was another possible boy who could have been the one to vanquish the Dark Lord, Dumbledore appears to get angry, saying Voldemort had already chosen the one. At this point Dumbledore does not want Harry wavering in his belief that the prophecy speaks of him. This could jeopardize Dumbledore's plan.

Posted by Patty from Quincy,Massachusetts on March 20, 2007 5:25 PM

You yourself said that the clue which you noticed first was "The Flying Avada Kedavra". Personally I don't think that it is as important as you think it might be. I only say this because in the Goblet of Fire movie when Cedric is ed, he is sent flying through the air. And since JKR ok's everything in the movie, I really think that it is just used to signify the importance of the , if anything at all.

Posted by Jeremy from Dublin, Ireland on March 24, 2007 1:38 PM

The movies are an interesting side-line of discussion, but for the purposes of these debates, only the books are considered "canon" (the accepted collection of facts on the subject). JK has written the books in a very tightly-woven tapestry of clues hidden within clues, and this was NOT done with the movies as a reference. So, when unravelling clues in the books, such as whether Dumbledore is or not, you can only use the books to do so.

Posted by Dave Haber from Los Angeles, CA on March 24, 2007 1:51 PM

Your right in saying that the thing Hagrid carried might not be Dumbledore's body because no one ever saw it afterwards except for Hagrid. Plus I always thought that Dumbledore might be an Animagus because of his unusual amount of control over Fawkes or Fawkes is a horcrux(who's i don't know because we know Dumbledore is to noble to ever someone. Maybe it can be a Godric Gryffindor horcrux and that explain why it acts on or listens to Harry's orders because Harry is the descendant of Gryffindor.

Posted by Abby from Aruba on March 25, 2007 09:28 AM

The clues you found are really great and I really support your theory, though wouldn't it be much more logical if Dumbledore DID , though on purpose. You already mentioned it, but in the clues that follow, you try to 'save' Dumbledore from . All the clues point out that Dummbledore DID NOT DIE instead of arguing that he DID , but on purpose. Hope you got that.

My next point is that the reason for Dumbledore to plan his , is to give Harry Potter his honour to do the job vs. Lord Voldemort. Let's say, Dumbledore is alive (like you pointed out) and the story goes on, Harry s Voldemort... Now what? Harry did it, but who would you appreciate the most? Wouldn't you say Dumbledore almost GAVE Harry the oppurtunity to Lord Voldemort? I think Harry would be in the shadow of Dumbledore and would not have the chance to prove his real worth and real feelings in a 1 on 1 fight with Lord Voldemort. Dumbledore already helped him out enough. Harry needs to do more things on his own, instead of relying on his helpers. I would make Dumbledore as well if I had been the writer. But this is all speculation and I still hope you guys are right, though I would really regret it if Harry comes in the shadows of Dumbledore, so that whole Wizardry World have to admit, if they want it or not, that Dumbledore was the most important person in the mission to Lord Voldemort.

Posted by RJ from Holland on March 29, 2007 1:00 PM

I like your theory and all, RJ, but I side with the Dumbledore-is-an-Animagus theory, but with a new wrinkle:
What if he could turn into an owl? In stories, owls are always, the old and wise animals aren't they? Animagi usually pick animals that suit their personality and/or needs. I don't know an animal that fits Dumbledore better than that of an owl. Further Evidence-
In book 5, as Fudge, Kingsley, Percy, and Dawlish are knocked out in Dumbledore's office, McGonagall asks Dumbledore is he hide at Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore says he not go into hiding: No, Fudge regret chasing him from Hogwarts. We still have no inkling as to where he actually went during the time he was out of Hogwarts, but what if he was an owl? Having access to Fudge's mail seems an effective way to fulfill Dumbledore's promise. As the messenger he could spy, alter the letters, who knows?

Posted by Connor K from Rigby, ID on March 29, 2007 4:11 PM

i think he could have been an Animagus. i think Dumbledore rose from his ashes into a Phoenix. Harry saw the Phoenix rise out of the ashes. but how? if so what does that actually mean for him? i think Dumbledore told Snape to him. Dumbledore has also said that there are worse things than .

Posted by Chokito from Australia on March 31, 2007 06:28 AM

This is in reference to the heading "Lets all Play ."

I was listening to the audio from Book 1 last night, and heard the list of potions, etc. that Snape was listing at their first Potions Class, and he mentions (don't have the exact wording) about the potion called the "Draught of Living " that could make someone sleep so soundly that it would appear they were . And there is at least one (maybe two) references to Dumbledore after he is that mention that it looked like he was sleeping. We've never heard any more about the Draught of Living . If Dumbledore needed to be hidden or needed to do something under cover, isn't it possible that this was the plan between Dumbledore and Snape?

And possibly the potion Dumbledore drank at the cave was the Draught of Living (since it's obvious that the locket was fake, and the original locket/liquid had been replaced.) and Snape's spell (nonverbal) somehow activated this...

The biggest flaw with this is that the DADA had to go and notify Snape that the eaters were there... he wasn't waiting in the tower for Dumbledore's return.

I know JKRowling has said Dumbledore is , but not only have I not completed the 5 steps of grief, I don't think Rowling has to be completely honest, either.

Posted by Lynn from Pennsylvania on April 2, 2007 08:12 AM

Even if Dumbledore was a phoenix animagus, I don't think he would have the ability of rising out of ashes. Animagus have some animal abilities (a very good nose for instance), but probably only physical abilities, not magical ones. I'm not sure, for instance, that a tortoise animagus could live 200 years, and we know for sure that a rat animagus can live much longer than usual rats.

By the way, Trevor's life should last around ten years. Where did it come from and when was it born?

Posted by herve from strasbourg on April 2, 2007 09:30 AM

Ok, you make many arguments, but they don't prove Dumbledore's alive, they prove he planned on . The only reason Dumbledore would leave Harry's side in this war would be because he was ACTUALLY . He would pretend to be and make Harry run around trying to do this on his own while, he just watched. Dumbledore's not like that. Moving on to Fawkes, why can't Dumbledore's bird just be sad? His owner d and Fawkes had to stand there and take it. Dumbledore had to have fore warned Fawkes about this. Phoenix tears can't heal people. Even if Fawkes was allowed to help, if he could raise people from the , then people would line up for miles waiting to have their mom, dad, sister, brother, friend resurrected! Also, about the "flying Avada Kedavera" thing, in you quote you write about how expelliamus made Snape (or someone I can't remember) is flown in the air, but on the tower, when Draco disarms Dumbledore he isn't flown into the air. I think it just depends on the force given from the caster and the weakness (like Dumbledore on the roof) of the receiver of the spell. Anyway, overall, I think that your arguments about Dumbledore being alive are wrong, but he did plan it. You just read too much into everything in that department. However, I think you are right about Snape, he's good, he just had to do it.

Posted by Sara G. from Philadelphia, PA on April 5, 2007 3:30 PM

Pages:  <<  <  10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30  >  >>

Featured Discussions | The Septology | Harry's World | Harry Potter Movies | Dumbeldore Is Not Dead | FAQ is not affiliated with or approved by
Scholastic Books, Bloomsbury, Warner Bros., or J.K. Rowling
Original Content Copyright © 2006-2010 David Haber, All Rights Reserved